Living Forward
Living Forward
From Puzzles to Poptronica
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In this episode, we dive deep into two of life's greatest puzzles: the Declaration of Independence and actual puzzles. One thousand pieces of historical text—what could go wrong? Tune in as we discuss the satisfaction and frustration of tackling a thousand-piece replica of America's most famous document.
But don’t worry, it's not just about history; we also explore Barbara’s new album! The title track, "56 Fishes" is inspired by the varied worldviews of the signers of the Declaration. A genre-blending amalgam of neo indie, indie pop, dark alt pop, and industrial pop, the project is coming together one song—and one confusing fish—at a time. Metaphors fly faster than puzzle pieces.
This episode explores the creative mind of an artist trying to solve much bigger puzzles in life.
Whether you’re into puzzles, music, or if you just want to know why fish are schooling with the Founding Fathers, this episode is the ride you didn’t know you needed.
Follow us on Instagram @wearelivingforward
my puzzle, the declaration of independence puzzle. I don't like especially that come on, it's a thousand piece.
Teja:Puzzle this, oh my god I I'm so triggered no, oh, my goodness not by the topic, I mean maybe I am.
Barbara:I mean okay it's the declaration of independence I know and it's all like. It looks like. It's all written out in the little script.
Teja:Have you read the whole thing?
Barbara:And it's I have. You've read the whole in, in. I haven't memorized it, but I have read the whole thing. Yes, Wow. Okay, well, I've also read the constitution and the old articles of the Confederacy.
Teja:Have you read all the amendments?
Barbara:Yes, I have read all the amendments again. I don't have it memorized, but I have read it all, actually a couple of times each.
Teja:Wow, yes, I'm impressed. I why did I not know this about you? You know that I developed this interest in early american history yes, actually you have, yes, and I just read book after book and get more and more fascinated Wow. I do Well in terms of puzzles. I just so much of my day. So an example is that I'm an editor.
Barbara:Yes, so this should be easy for you.
Teja:The podcast we talked about last week, uh-huh, guess how many edits there are in, like a 35-minute episode Six Okay, I'm just kidding. So puzzles are puzzling.
Barbara:Yeah, but this is the Declaration of Independence. All the little words. Someday I'll finish it. It's hard, it's hard.
Teja:I know, but what is is? Does it calm you doing puzzles?
Barbara:actually I can get into a flow state I see, I see, I cannot, I get aggravated, oh but.
Teja:I I also. It's like working yeah, well, not to me no, I know, I know and I and I I, I, I love that about you, that you like the declaration of Independence and you've memorized it. I have not memorized it.
Barbara:I have not memorized it, but I am working on a 1,000-piece puzzle that is a replica of the Declaration of Independence.
Teja:Well, do you bring all of that into everything? Like like how do you carry that around with you?
Barbara:like how do I carry it? Well, you know, I have a puzzle board yeah, and not being more, oh we're, oh, metaphorical symbolism symbolism. Well, this was a one. I see where you're going with this. I see I see you. I see you and where you're going, and I like it.
Teja:You have. You spend so much time. The last episode. You said a lot going on in that little brain there.
Barbara:Right, but I mean you too, oh yeah, you've got a lot of stuff going on in that brain high maintenance mental status, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, say that again.
Teja:What is it? High maintenance mental status yes, uh, speaking of high maintenance. What? What do you do with all that? All the stuff in my head because you're a writer, you're a poet, you're a singer, you're an actress, you are did I say, songwriter renaissance woman.
Barbara:Well, so yes, I am recording an album.
Teja:And you're also a geek, so you know how to do this like technically.
Barbara:Well, I mean sort of I'm not the best technical person, but yes, the connection here for all of the listeners who are not privy to the Declaration of Independence puzzle, that is actually in process.
Teja:You know, the way you moved your hand just now was kind of like when you're scratching records.
Barbara:Declaration of Independence In a bit, in a bit In a bit. Yeah, is my song 56 Fishes.
Teja:So tell me about that. You told me a long time ago, but I don't remember the details. Why fishes and why 56?
Barbara:Well, you know how we talked about my brain, yeah, so I just got this idea one day about the way fish school together, but they're all also separate.
Teja:and then I sort of started putting why are you squirming while you're talking together?
Barbara:because I'm I'm trying to figure out how I got there, like I know where I ended up, but you know how, when you're driving and all of a sudden you get home and you're like, oh wait, which route did I take? Because you don't remember even how you got there. That's kind of where I am, because what it is is it's the 56 fishes represent the signers of the Declaration of Independence.
Teja:There were 50. So I didn't grow up in the US. I never studied you know US history really, so I don't really know much about that but there were 56 people who signed the Declaration of Independence.
Barbara:Most of the signers voted in favor, so this is interesting.
Teja:Wait, they were. I see, Okay, they weren't just signing it, they were voting on it.
Barbara:Well, so here's the thing.
Teja:Oh no.
Barbara:Yeah, and I get so interested in this and excited about it because then eventually people had to sign it over time and so there were eventually 56 people who signed it. Brain is that my brain will sometimes put pieces together that I don't remember. I remember until then I remember I remember it surfaces yeah kind of floats to the surface, but those would be dead fish. Well, no fish also come to the surface, although all of the signers of the declaration of independence have passed, so maybe that's apt as well, but yeah, so this song 56 Fishes, started off really my trek towards my new album which I'm putting together now.
Teja:As a poet, you also write symbolically right, yes also write symbolically, right? So you find, you find phrases or words or passages that have some kind of a you know suggestion to actually mean something else, right? So you so 56. And then you said you said that, uh, fish school together, but they're also independent, which is very true. That's actually how diversity and evolution works.
Barbara:Right. But my point with the song is that through the lens of history, we often see the founders of the country as just all one thing because it's the founders, right, it's like a thing like a school school of fish. But when you start reading american history, you start reading biographies and things like that about these people. You realize how unique and different each of them really was so each of them has this like each of them is part of what became america and drove how the country was created.
Barbara:But each of them is part of what became America and drove how the country was created. But each of them also had their own thoughts and their own ideas about what direction they wanted things to go, and so this song is about this. It's like a school, but they're all separate and, in a way, there was actually a lot of like disagreement and negotiation. Again, everybody thinks that, oh, we just stepped right from colony to Revolutionary War, to America as we know it today, and the story is much more interesting than that.
Teja:Birds are the same, you know, or, or bees, or well, now you're getting into the birds and the bees.
Barbara:Oh, that is not where my album goes that's where I start, oh anyway but no, so so um, but why specifically fish?
Teja:because and isn't the plural of fish, fish?
Barbara:it is it's called 56 fishes, fishes which actually is somewhat accepted, believe it or not there is a there is a, a world view that says fishes is okay fishes. It's not entirely proper english. But okay there's there. I've heard people argue the point and my point is really that's what my brain gave me.
Teja:So 56 fishes, because you just fish. I mean, it could have been anything. It could have been bats, it could have been birds.
Barbara:Yeah, but try putting that in a song. That's just a little more difficult.
Teja:True, yeah, especially with bats.
Barbara:Because this is like 56 fishes. Oh I see, okay. True, yeah, especially with bats. Because this is like 56 fishes. Oh I see, like okay. And when you're songwriting, you need to sometimes play around with the words to make them work in terms of the rhythm and even the speech sounds.
Barbara:Sometimes you, you pick a word and it's like, yeah, this is what I mean. But then you say the phrase or you sing the phrase and wait, that doesn't sound good together like the, the consonants sort of get in the way of each other or something, and then you have to kind of, what's another way?
Teja:I can say this that would serve both the message and the music I was listening to this, uh, watching this short interview with paul simon of simon and golf, uh, garfunkel, uh, about the creation of his song graceland and this is, of course, much later. Must must have been a couple years ago. They recorded this, but one of the things he did talk about something like that. Like, I chose this word not because it was the first word that came to mind, but because it it had some linguistic, you know, similarities or a feel to the next word right, you have to get into the connotation of the word as well the, the potential symbolic piece of the word.
Barbara:And you know and you're talking about the graceland album but I was. You know, I got this from an interview with pat benatar many, many years ago that I listened to, where she was talking about how sometimes you have to change the word because as you sing it you realize there's like too much sibilance or there's too many consonants right next to each other, or you know something like that like, even though it technically fits the rhythm, there's some other element that makes it not work.
Teja:In this case, what is sibilance?
Barbara:Sibilance. It's those sounds that.
Teja:Can you have twin sibilance?
Barbara:That would be siblings. Yeah, yeah, f's and S's and S-H's and that kind of thing. There's siblings.
Teja:I never even actually thought about siblings, that being a consideration even like when you're singing. Certain vowels are hard to sing on certain pitches what's more important than if you find a word that rhymes really well or a word that almost rhymes but sounds better?
Barbara:people do what are called close rhymes all the time, which is where I mean what's often most important is the vowel that the vowel either is or can sound the same meaning like. If you change the pronunciation a little bit, then all of a sudden it was all right, yeah oh, interesting okay and then you know, sometimes it doesn't then matter as much what consonant comes after it. It depends on the context.
Teja:I think you mentioned this a while ago. So that's like when a singer might not emphasize the ending consonant of a word, because it's the vowel that really carries the.
Barbara:Right, and especially in pop and rock music and my music is more like in the realm of pop, electronica. So in musical theater there's a lot more consonants, at least traditional musical theater. In classical music there's a way that you need to do the vowels and the consonants, whereas contemporary, like pop and rock and jazz and things like that, there's just a lot more variability in terms of the vowels and how you choose to use the consonants and things would you call it poptronica? Poptronica, I don't.
Teja:I don't know, maybe yeah, you can call it Poptronica, Start a whole new genre. That's your thing, man, but so okay. So you're so 60, 50, 56 Fishes. Was it the impetus for your current body of work?
Barbara:Well. I had like a couple of other songs kind of half started, and but once I really dug into that song and got that one going, I was like, oh wait, now I've got these other pieces. And that kind of got me rolling until I had seven songs that I was like, oh yeah, this is, this is coming together. So the way I work is I kind of start with a concept and then I make what's called the composition version of the song.
Teja:What does that mean so?
Barbara:I'm working with a digital audio workstation, what in the biz is called a DAW, daw, it's a DAW.
Teja:It's a.
Barbara:DAW so.
Teja:Snoop DAW.
Barbara:If you want to, Okay. No, that was see, that was a close rhyme oh wow, I succeeded so I might have all the lyrics written or I might not. I might just have certain key stanzas written and then I am creating the melody and I'm and the rhythms and building it actually inside of the DAW. So I don't a lot of songwriters at first they like map it out first, but I'm my songs are a lot more organic, where I'm kind of putting pieces together and moving them around and choosing instruments.
Teja:This goes back to the puzzle, the puzzle stuff. See, that's the thing, yeah, right.
Barbara:So I build my songs more like a puzzle some people are much more linear.
Barbara:you know, they write the lyrics first, and then the melody and then the chords, and I'm kind of all over the place, to tell you the truth. And then I finally get to a place where I'm like okay, this is the composition version, meaning that it is written, the parts are all there. I've got what you call scratch vocals in there, which I've recorded in, but it's not in a soundproof booth or anything like that, and it's not repeated until it's perfect. It's not doubled.
Barbara:There's a lot of stuff missing but it at least gets the vocals there. It's not doubled, there's a lot of stuff missing, but it at least gets the vocals there. I build out the harmonies do scratch harmonies so that then you can hear the whole thing. And that's the composition version.
Teja:And so let's say you-.
Barbara:It's composed it's composed.
Teja:So let's say, you use that process to create, or at least begin creating, and the iterations that come after that, 56 fishes right. So you've got the, you get more, you got the melody. You may even make a change to word here and there, depending on what what you're finding.
Teja:so you're kind of fluid about that, the uh, uh, using, using your software, your hardware, and you record, you test it a few times and then you've got a basic outline for what it's going to sound like. You haven't mixed it yet, but then, like, does that inspire other similar stories? By the story, by the words or the? Ideas they're supposed to push forward, or is it more the sounds that push your new ideas forward? How do you fit all the other songs into? Because you're working on an album right.
Barbara:Yeah, and so I mean I think I kind of get a vibe going. There's some similarity to the vibe that I had on my last EP. So I put together four songs a few years ago um, on the EP in hiding and my artists my musical artist name is Morgan Duran, so it's sort of like as if it were a band, right, but it's really just me. But, um, yeah, so Morgan Duran and it's in hiding and I have four songs and they have similarities in that they're electronically based and things like that. But there's some differences too with this album, in that In Hiding the songs are somewhat longer. For example, they're all over four minutes long, I think, and some of them are over four and a half minutes long, which, in the radio world, is too long. I mean, it's not meatloaf or anything, but it's apparently still too long.
Teja:James Joyce, the album.
Barbara:Okay, no, punctuation. No, so Wouldn't that be great. James Joyce, the album Okay, no, punctuation. No, so Wouldn't that be great.
Teja:James Joyce, the opera oh.
Barbara:I'm sure someone's done it somewhere.
Teja:Probably Kabuki or no.
Barbara:It's in Norway.
Teja:I don't know why. It'd be like 18 years, oh my goodness, but this album is shorter.
Barbara:In fact, very few of the songs, if any, break three minutes. It's very bizarre. So like I don't know what that's all about, and also I have more words in this album, so last time I was really experimenting with the how can I tell a story with few words?
Teja:Oh.
Barbara:This time though the stories just had more words and again I would love to say that, oh, I totally planned it that way, but I just had more to say this time.
Barbara:And the songs have some kind of mission, or are they in some way socially driven or these commentary on humanity this album is all about relationships oh, I see I've discovered, but again I discover that after the fact like critical of our relationship uh, actually there is a song about you is there a song called doghouse no, there's a song about you there really is, yeah, me well, us it's called.
Teja:I see wolves that doesn't sound good well what it is.
Barbara:Oh no, here we go. So I am usually the Debbie Downer, I'm usually the cynic I it. So I am the one that when someone tries to like sell me something and I'm on, no, and you know, I'm like I, just I I. It takes me a long time to trust people, whereas you tend to see the good in people. I try.
Teja:Yeah. And so it's a song about how Unless you cross me.
Barbara:I see wolves.
Teja:I see.
Barbara:And you see light, I see light. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah.
Teja:Well, wolves howl at the light.
Barbara:Yeah, but I see wolves, Okay. I see shadows, oh yeah, but I see wolves Okay. I see shadows.
Teja:Oh, fascinating, I see dark.
Barbara:I see malice. You see light. That's part of the lyric for that song. I see okay, or I say he sees light is what I say yeah, so there's no.
Teja:and, by the way, I'm pretty secure in that. I'm not sure if I always do, and I appreciate that you do much more than me.
Barbara:Okay, all right.
Teja:Is that story? Is that song in any way related to 56 Fishes and the other?
Barbara:songs. They're all about different kinds of relationships, right? So 56 fishes is a relationship song oh, I mean that it's these people came together to do something, and because it's really and actually that's going to be the title song of the album, because it's really about all of us 56 fishes is about all of our relationships to each other.
Teja:I really like that a lot. I don't think you've ever explained that part to me. That's fascinating.
Barbara:Because I just figured it out.
Teja:Well, no, I mean, it's in there in your very busy brain. Busy busy busy, but this probably the truth is that that has been there.
Barbara:Yeah, so impacts that's that's everybody in all of us, right, and sort of where we came from, right. But there's this song that I just told you about I see wolves. There's, um, a song about a family relationship where things are very tense and it's not even sure if the family members will stay in touch. There's a song about my own grandmother and how I felt like I never really got to know her as a person because she didn't reveal much of herself actually.
Barbara:Yeah, you know when you would talk to her. There's a song about a person who starts falling in love with a sociopath, but then, gets away, and that comes from part of a true story, not my story, but someone else's story. And then, which one am I missing?
Teja:I don't know, it's a puzzle to me.
Barbara:It's a puzzle.
Teja:What's next for you? Have you finished? How many songs in the album have you finished?
Barbara:And I have finished my composition versions, so now comes the official.
Teja:So just as a reminder, composition version means that-.
Barbara:I've written it. It's in the digital audio workstation in its full form in terms of the instruments are there, the scratch vocals are there, the order is set, the measures are set, everything Like everything's set and it's ready to be actually what you might say produced.
Teja:So it's like a rough cut. It's a rough draft yeah and that you know you will be replacing elements of it, including your voice, because you'll be singing. I'll be.
Barbara:I'll be re-singing the whole thing, yeah, so right now, where we are in the process is that I am working with my production and songwriter, buddy um, because actually there's two songs we wrote together that aren't on this album that we'll be releasing sometime around the same time, like we're working it in the release schedule, um, so we're working together to he's putting together the tracks, like taking some of the instruments I had, for example, and saying what if we did this instrument instead? And usually what he's suggesting is just a much better quality version of that instrument than I have. Or, you know, he also can listen to it and say, oh well, here's one that has like a darker tone versus a brighter tone. Which one were you going for? Because, like, the one I picked is like in the middle you know, he's like why don't we pick one or the other, you know?
Barbara:and so then it'll be the same thing that I wrote, but it's just, we've put a different electronic instrument on it, you know, um, and then I have to like get him certain information about it at the same, because on the 22nd, uh, I'm flying to Los Angeles and we're going to spend four days in the studio recording and that's where I'll get my final vocals in.
Teja:And then so okay, so you're, so you're recording it, then you get your final vocals in and then and I'm doing some coaching, so I'm having you know, usually I'm doing some coaching.
Barbara:So I'm having so, you know, usually I'm giving the coaching right but I'm having some coaching with, uh, noelle Smith, who I've worked with on a number of projects with you know, as a singing teacher, and so I'm super excited to be working with her and so she's kind of she's an electronic artist as well. She's sung on like video games and things like that and so, um, you know, she's kind of you can never hear yourself the way you need to to like get to where you want to go. So she's kind of listening and helping me find the right vocal vibe for where I want to go with it and then what happens after that?
Teja:like he'll, he'll, mix he'll.
Barbara:Yeah, so we'll record it and he'll be then. That's the thing you talked about the technology. He's can drive all the technology, and all I have to think about is what I'm singing. That makes sense, right, because you don't want to be distracted with all the other stuff but then, yeah, he does something called mixing, which for people who aren't familiar, it means taking now everything that's recorded and for one thing, you put it in space, like a lot of times you don't think about this.
Barbara:You have headphones on, for example, and if you close your eyes you can almost visualize the singer front and in the middle, almost visualize the singer front and in the middle, and you can visualize a sound on the you know right quote back of the stage or the left front of the stage, like if you close your eyes and listen, you'll realize that the way they've mixed it is that you can actually get a sense of these instruments happening in space, and so there's a lot of things that they do to make that happen and then to blend it with the voice and make sure that there's the right amount of everything so everything sounds like a finished product instead of just pieces thrown together and like half, interfering with each other.
Teja:Okay.
Barbara:So that he'll do. And then the last step after that is something called mastering, which is where you throw it through a process that I don't completely understand, but makes it work, regardless of what kind of listening situation you're in. So the mastering is what makes it, so I can take this recording and I can play it in my car, or I can play it in my earbuds, or I can play it on speakers in a room and it's still gonna sound good.
Teja:Sound good, it'll still be. You'll have seven songs in the can in the case it well, in the music industry this is called in the can. No, I don't know, that's just a film term well, it's a film term but, uh, seven songs for that album.
Barbara:And then we have the two songs, the two independent songs that Will and I did together, and so we're going to then figure out what the release schedule is. So no release date yet. For anyone who is interested in hearing what I did before on In Hiding, that's on Spotify, apple Music, all the places, as well as Bandcamp, you can. If you want a copy to download, you can get it on Bandcamp, and it's Morgan Duran is my band name, if you will my band name is Morgan.
Barbara:Duran excellent. I will admit that the Duran comes from the fact that I love Duran Duran. Everyone knows it comes from that, I know.
Teja:I know Well.
Barbara:It's a not so well kept secret.
Teja:No, yes, not as hungry as the wolf.
Barbara:Ah, I see wolves.
Teja:That's what I'm saying, oh my gosh, that's what I'm saying, oh my gosh, that's what I'm saying.
Teja:Okay, that's where it comes from it goes deeper than we ever knew than we ever knew, knew, knew well, this was really fascinating. I I um Fascinating, I I um being in production myself. There's so many areas that I don't know. I just I'm just grateful that that you can share some of the complexities behind even what goes on in what most people know to be common. It's like like like a Taylor Swift album album, like it's not just that, she's, she does that, and then it just goes, that's this on steroids.
Barbara:I mean it's like right, yeah, that's like serious. So take what I just told you and then like, amplify that right but, but, but your process is the same the process is the same.
Teja:That's what I'm saying is saying is that you could take a minute to write a song. You could take a year to write a song. You could be inspired by something that you see on a table. You could be inspired by something that just you woke up with from a dream.
Barbara:I once wrote a song about a misreading of somebody's T-shirt in a crowd.
Teja:See, it's your busy brain, yeah, brain, yeah.
Barbara:you got a lot of stuff going on there I saw these words on a t-shirt and I thought it said one thing, and I got this whole thing going on in my head that turned into a song. Yeah, and that wasn't even what the t-shirt said. I love it. So again, that's a little look into my brain yeah, well, together there's a lot of brain stuff going on. Oh yeah, there's brain stuff, we got brains all over the place.
Teja:We got brain stuff all over the place. Brains, you know, zombies, would I think. I have not yet written a song about zombies hmm well so you never know, maybe that'll be the next theme 56 zombies.
Barbara:No, it's 56 fishes. Alright, and someday everyone will get to hear it Someday soon.
Teja:Excellent, can't wait.
Barbara:Yay, alright. Well, ladies and gentlemen, and everything else that can be and possibly is.
Teja:Live forever.
Barbara:At least live forward.
Teja:Bye, bye.